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The economy is constantly changing, and as a business owner you need to be prepared for anything. Watch & listen to this podcast for insights on how to respond to a changing economy. You'll learn about different recession-proof strategies, and how to keep your business afloat during tough times!

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Vincent Aguirre: Hello, everyone, we are back with another Small Business Squad presents Beyond the Launch. I'm here with Ken and Dave Bittner. Today, it's been a while, you know, summer got the best of us. We took some time off here for the summer. But we're back and today we're going to talk about responding to a changing economy. Before we get started, I want everyone to know you see the ticker at the bottom, you can go to To learn more about what we have going on here you can see prior episodes and series that we've worked on, you can learn more about Ken, myself, Dave, connect with other small business owners on our Facebook page. There's tons of things to do. But the first step is going down to Without further ado, I'm going to bring in Ken and Dave, to introduce us and get going.

Ken Eitel: Thanks, Vince, I really appreciate being back on the air again. I really enjoyed the comments on the things that we had done over the past several months, they were very timely. But since we've done those, throughout the summer, things have really began to change a little bit in terms of the economy and at least what we hear in the news. And so while the last session is focused on skills and management, and as you noted, are available on the YouTube channel. This this next series of 8 to 10 sessions, over the next several weeks is going to be talking about the changing economy and what those challenges are. And we're going to try to feature in each one, guests. Today, our guest is Dave Bittner, who's been with us before, we're going to be able to bring in hopefully some new guests and some other individuals that are experts as Dave is in the area, we're going to try to use some Small Business Squad members. And if you haven't joined the Small Business Squad, those listening should think about doing that. And then we might also introduce some of our other employees at Distinct so members of this podcast can get to know them. So the that's the session overviews of what we're going to try to accomplish. We're going to talk next week about…

Vince: Oh, no. Dave, you hearing that too? I do not hear Ken anymore. Ken, we lost you temporarily. Huh, there you go. You're back. Yeah, I don't know what that was.

Ken: I don't know what that was either. At any rate, we're gonna talk over the next 8 to 10 weeks about things that are relevant to the changing economy. So I hope that you all enjoy that. Talking about responsibility of business owners, as well as how you manage yourself, how you lead yourself, and other other topics that I think are very relevant. So, let's talk today then about response to the changing economy. You know, I noticed that it clearly it's changed. A couple of years of the pandemic, a lot of changes, positive, some negative some people did really well, some did not do as well. But I think it's really important that we think about our internal efficiencies, those things that we do, as business owners to set the mood, you know, I've even over the years sometimes just quit reading the news. I just quit watching that quit reading articles. Because I knew that I needed to focus on those things that were were in inside my business and efficiency. So internal attitudes, what what are the attitudes that you present to your employees and to your customers? Is it positive? Or are you weighted down with negativity? How are you thinking about what new products I can add? Has the economy changed? What people are looking for? What can I do differently? How can I how can I reach them? And the other thing that's important is pay attention to your current customers. You know, they they are your lifeblood, they're 80% of your business, usually, and make sure you take care of them right along with your employees, because they're, they're just as valuable. And then be aware of the messaging that you're that you're conveying to your employees. Are you talking about the negative things that are happening? Are you finding the positive things? Are you finding those things that are uplifting, rather than maybe not quite so positive? So I just asked him, I think at this point, Dave, what, what's been your experience out there with the people you've been consulting with? At ISPDC? What are you kind of things seen with other small business owners?

04:41 Focus on the things that you can handle and influence

Dave Bittner: Yeah, thanks, Ken. And thanks, guys, for having me. This is always a great conversation to have and I learned so much each time. You know, Ken, I think the sentiment whether people do it subconsciously or not, is the old notion of, ‘Control what's in your control'. And there's so many times in the changing economy, that almost everything is out of your control. If you look at it that way, you can put yourself in a rabbit hole on your team, by lamenting the world. When you if you just focus on the things that you can handle and the things that you can influence. Not only does it does it move your business forward, but the only thing it does is people see accomplishments. And they see little wins along the way. And it keeps your staff and your customers vibrant. That you know, this isn't a doom and gloom scenario. And in fact, milestones are reached. Offers and services are provided. Life moves on, and people actually benefit from commerce. And I think the the idea of of keeping your head almost in the sand a little bit about, like you said, don't read the news, I completely agree with you. You have to do you've got to do it quickly, selectively and get in and out. And for God's sake, read it. Don't listen to somebody by during yet about negativity. So yeah, control, what's in your control. It's always helped in the past and the Small Business folks that I've been dealing with and advising the last four or five months here, those are those seem to be the winners, the ones that focus on that.

Ken: So while I'm probably the senior member of this group, and have been through maybe two or three of these cycles, yeah, well, no comment. You see the shine? Yeah. Yeah. No, you weren't? Back on subject. I've been through two or three of these cycles, different levels, different concerns, we actually purchased our first business in a down cycle, because that was an opportunity at that particular point. Dave, I think you've been maybe through as many recessions as I have, or slow downs. Clearly, none of us have been through the Depression. But talk a little bit about what your experience was, in your prior positions, how you dealt with slow downs, or recessions, or whatever we want to call?

07:21 Don't focus on things that are providing zero value

Dave: Yeah, I think, to start out with a comment I was, I think back to the 08′ recession. And there was a sentiment going around, or maybe a joke that said, what's their state of recession and the depression. And the recession is when your friend or a neighbor loses their job. And then depression is when you lose your job. And it was seen in my world, but you know, and if I think back to the 08′ downturn, I was up in the Midwest and every manufacturing service operation that we had, it always came back to the things we should have done when times were good. And that is the basics. Just look at your costs, look at your efficiencies, look at your inefficiencies, don't focus on things that are providing zero value. And those recessionary times, you can almost look at it and say, we need to, we need to pull back and then trench and, and wait it out. But in reality, the right thing to do is be active, get active, really look at your business and it through a microscope, and understand where you're where you're not efficient, and you're not bleeding costs, and then immediately get on a marketing program immediately start to look at how can I enhance my my current customer base, because the competitors that are in my area are probably facing just the chance, same challenge as I am and maybe they're not doing a good job dealing with it and their customers are getting upset. So there's an opportunity to gain some market share in those times. But but really Ken I think, when you get past the fear of, oh my gosh, what can happen? And you start to just buckle down and and look at how efficient or inefficient you are. You can really get some upside for your business that carries out of a recession.

09:31 Stay positive & be encouraging as a leader

Ken: You always hear the statement and I've heard many times that out of challenges comes opportunity. And I think that oftentimes, there's opportunity in times of challenge and I think that's just such an important message. And I think that the other message is for your staff, for yourself internally, really for your customers. Stay positive, be encouraging to stay positive. And you'd be surprised how much leadership from the top down positive leadership will make a difference in the way people react to each other when they when they come in. So, Vince, you've not necessarily.. were you around much in business in 2008. During that period of time?

Vince: No. And to be honest, thinking back in that period of time, I was a freshman in college. But thinking back on that period, always makes me wonder, what would it be like now? What would happen now? How do I prepare for that? Because I remember the devastation. That leads me to a question I want to ask both of you. I've always felt that a lot of my opportunity being a startup at that time, shortly after 2008 right – 2013 is when we started our business. I feel like my opportunity was because of a lot of the mix up that the recession caused, right, more people wanting to go into business for themselves, or people were the economy was starting to grow again after the recession. So I'm curious, do you all think that there is, and maybe I'm jumping ahead. But for those who are prepared, do you think there is that light at the end of the tunnel when something does happen in the economy? Maybe a couple years later, is there that new growth that comes?

Ken: Dave? Take that one to start with.

Dave: Yeah, absolutely. And in my biased opinion, on small business, I think small business generally leads the charge coming out of downturns event. I worked at a large company during the downturn as well. And, look, we were the last one to hire, we were the last one to reinvest. And we just wanted to make sure things were perfect before we got back in the game. Business owner doesn't do that. You get your head down, and you start working. And you find opportunity in a changing environment. And so to me, yeah, I think small businesses is uniquely poised in a downturn, when it starts to come out to move quickly.

Ken: I think that pivot can be much quicker. And the pivot during during the time when things are a little bit slower, can be much quicker as well. One of the advantages, and one of the exciting things about small business, is your ability to change things up, do things differently. And Vince, you mentioned a word and that's called you said, if you're prepared. And that's a real key, I think that one of the messages we should give in this small business arena is that you need to be prepared. You need to be conservative, we've talked before about saving money about putting money back for these particular kinds of times. If you do that you may do better during these times than you're doing when things are great. And so as a whole. So, it can be a very positive experience. There's preparation, there's mindset, there's having encouraging people around you. And by the same token, again, supporting those people that work for you, that are your customers that support you, is just terribly important, I think, in an economy of this particular type. But let's talk a little bit about those customers. Let's talk about how you exceptionally serve those customers that we were just kind of talking about. And so Vince, do you want to talk a little bit about what you're doing in terms of serving customers and what you're trying to do, exceptionally to, to keep this positive attitude that you have?

13:54 How to focus on client success

Vince: Yeah, absolutely. So you know, there's a few different things we're doing. From an internal perspective, right now, for distinct, we're really focusing on engaging with our existing clients, giving back connecting, we've hired a community manager recently, to really just focus on client success. And we're building out partnerships with auxiliary services that can amplify our product videographers, photographers, things like that, to help connect our clients with the resources to make them successful. You know, we started to things like the Small Business Squad in this podcast, to really focus again, on giving back right? Do we hope that there's someone out there watching this who wants a website and wants to work with us? Sure, we'd love to work with you. But we hardly sell our services on this on this podcast, right? We're really trying to give back and connect. And I think that's really authentic way to make connections that can eventually lead to business, but also help amplify our customers. The stronger our customers are, the more likely they are to survive, change the economy, and continue to be our customers. And that's really the end goal, right to make sure they're successful and can keep working with us.

Ken: Dave, jump into that.

Dave: It's an old old sentiment. But when times are tough, you got to take great care of your best customers. And you show them the dedication that you have for them, and their well being and whatever they need in tough times, because when you come out of that, you'll get a big pop on word of mouth, hey, they're always there. For me, they always took care of me. But also, you learn how to be on edge all the time to make sure they're satisfied and happy. And a lot of time that builds into your culture of the business, when you come out of the recession. So customer relationships, raining, just sitting down and talking to him, you've probably done the same thing, the some of the most refreshing things you can get is when you'd have a frank conversation with one of your customers, especially when you're both trying to work through a tough time together. In a recessionary environment. You get some good raw, unfiltered feedback that can benefit your business. And it's just worth its weight in gold.

16:22 Do business partnerships & being creative in your business

Ken: I think one of the things that Vince do, it's just mentioned, occurs to me, he's involved some in business-to-business, rather than business-to-regular retailer customers. But is the idea of partnering with others, you partner with other people who might be your vendor, but at the same time that vendor may be an advantage to you, as well as you're advantage to that vendor. So the more you can partner, the more you can come together with other business people, whether it be something Coop advertising, or something that you do together, whether it be an event, any of those kinds of things to not just come to serve your customers, but come together as a business community, small business community, including nonprofits, to try and support each other, find all the good things that are going on, and are happening that can then translate, maybe not immediately. But I think during these times, we also have to be able to look long term, we have to be able to think about the kinds of things that might might be important a couple years down the road, because you we will come out of this. And we do why you can be prepared for that. But you've built a whole a wider range of customer base of the people that can help you, have mentors. And so it's just really important to be able to pull those folks together and bring that together. The other thing I think you can do that is interesting is to offer new products. Doesn't make a lot of sense, maybe. But to me, if you can do something to build excitement about the things that you're offering, you know, I've got a new product in the store, or I'm offering a new service, or I'm doing something that is a little bit different. Or I'm helping a nonprofit, whatever that is, bring things in that are new and different, and make you look different, be a little creative, and some of that have a little fun with it. So I think those things are just important and good ideas as well, to kind of go through these through these periods of time when maybe the overall economy in certain places is not very good. But we still hear that there are sectors that are doing well. And there are sectors that are somewhat depressed. But you can do this by being creative for your business. By the same token, when you do that be cost effective. Make sure that what you're doing is is returning money to you is returning revenue. And so it's sometimes a little more important during these times that you pay attention to every dollar where it's going and what kind of return do you get on the dollar that you spend during this particular time.

Ken: So David, why don't you talk a little bit about the importance of financial resources, budgeting, and those kinds of things that do with long term forecasts and those things that ISBDC does, frankly, at no charge for small business people, just a tremendous service.

20:09 The importance of financial resources & budgeting

Dave: Thank you and I appreciate the opportunity to shamelessly plug what we got going on at the Indiana Small Business Development Center. But really Ken, going into what you're saying is, and I mentioned it earlier that when times are tough, you want to buckle down, and you want to make sure that you're watching every penny, like you said. But you can't do that in a vacuum. And you can't just assume what's going on in your numbers, really analyzing a good data set, and sitting down with somebody and going through that and getting a good second set of eyes, whether it's a colleague, whether it's someone in your family, someone in business, or an advisor, because you live in it every day. And and you're always going to see the things that you've been seeing, to get that second set of eyes to ask some questions, hey, what why is that number so high, or whatever that can be really interesting feedback you get and cause you to think a little bit differently about your business, you really have to challenge your costs, you may look at it and say, Boy, you know, what I've been dealing with this supplier has been doing great with me forever. I know they're probably the best and the cheapest around, I'm not even going to get a look. But I'll tell you just go have a taste of what what else is out there. And you may find better quality and maybe find a better cost. Or you might realize that you can go back to your supplier and say, hey, look, you know, maybe you can work with me a little bit and maybe get a little bit off of the supply you're currently getting. But again, as you continue to analyze your numbers as you continue to analyze your business plan, the numbers might tell you to shift to your point, you may say, Boy that I've always wanted to pitch this product line into my portfolio and see if the customers like it. But what do you got to lose, and a time where you're you're trying to eke out as much as possible, you don't want to do that and have a bunch of product development costs and clean out your balance sheet, you definitely don't want to do that. But on the other hand, it could be interesting, because you can be a disruptor in the market. But you have to look at the data, you have to do some analysis and force yourself to sit down and look at that forecast. And, and I would say a good action plan. Although it could be tedious at times putting together an action plan and putting together a Gantt chart or some something that's going to keep you on task. That way, it's not the flavor of the month. We've all either done that consciously or subconsciously where we said, but I've always wanted to do this, I'm going to do that next week. And you never implement. You never get around to it, something else comes up. If you're gonna go through this effort to analyze your business, put together an action plan, it's just the right thing to do. And it'll also show your customers and your employees that you're serious. And your business is, is a strong business. And it has a plan of attack. And the reason why, you know, we want to be the best in the in the market. So all those things are important. Ken and I would just say last comment, as you're doing that. You may get some crazy ideas that come out of it. Don't fear the unknown. Go for it, and see where things go. I see that time and time again in small business, and they come out with with an unbelievable result when it's all said and done.

Vince: Yeah. Ken, I've overlooked there's been a chat message in the chat. If I throw it on the screen, you want to you want to read it and talk about it? So it says, gotta keep it positive. And as business owners, I think the responsibility falls on us to spread that positivity. Our customers will feel it, our employees will feel it and hopefully impact impact them to help them spread it. There is a the rest of its hidden. Let's see. There is a reason that business owners are the makers and shakers, we have the power to impact those around us in the community for good if we decide to do so I find more opportunities tend to be available right now, as long as you have the right presentation.

24:39 Finding opportunities during recession

Ken: Well, I apologize. I thought everyone could see that. I didn't realize that it was just us that could see that. But I think that's really sums up a lot of the message of this particular podcast. But the last sentence where it talks about how you can find opportunities during these particular times. I think that's just a tremendous message to convey. And there are opportunities in business but there are opportunities also personally and so You know, it's, you will grow. As you learn from the challenges that we have during these particular times your business will become better, as we've talked about. And I think, just to kind of go back a little, just to mention, one of the things Vince said is now the question is now the time to prepare for things to change. So I think it clearly is, it's clearly time to be conservative. But it's clearly time to prepare, and put your financial house in order and put your expenses in order. Those types of things so that when things do change, you will come out of it much much more quickly. And I think that's one of the things that is just, you know, just terribly important to position yourself for here.

Ken: Vince, what are you.. ?

Vince: You're missing a chance for your favorite term? Conservative Risk?

Ken: Yes, that's true.

Vince: You didn't drop it?

Ken: I thought about it. That's true. It's yeah, no question about it, you want to be conservative, but you get prepared for risk. And it's always been true that whether it's an unhappy customer, or whether it's challenges in the workplace, they, they need to be looked at as opportunities. And when you begin to do that, those things that you might think are weaknesses, can become strengths. And the other thing I think, oftentimes, it's really easy to do in these times is, you think you're the only one that's got a problem. You're not, you never have been, and you're not now, and a lot of people, and many businesses have been through these cycles, and have come out just fine. In fact, it may teach you a lot that, as Dave said, you're you're doing wrong to start with.

Vince: Well, I think that's the perfect time to remind people, that we have a community of business owners who are going through things just like you, and you can find them on Facebook by searching for this Small Business Squad or by going to to join the squad. So you're not alone. And we have a great community there that's excited to support each other. Sorry, now's the perfect chance I had to jump in.

Ken: Well, and also in are all the past testimonials. The past profiles of business owners who have been successful, many of them, new business owners, relatively speaking, as well as the past podcasts that we have done. And, you know, we've already talked about what's important in finance, we've already talked about how you look at your strengths and weaknesses and opportunities and threats. And there's just a wealth of information there. And so I think, when you have when a person has time, they really ought to take some time to go through some of those, you know, there's podcasts that are relatively formal, and I'll call them staged. And we're pretty far from that. But I think that the we have real real world wisdom here. And the kind of free flowing of the things that we do, I think it'd be really important to business people. Dave, I want to talk about something that I think people miss, maybe, particularly if you haven't had a county, and that is is managing your fixed cost, your fixed expenses versus your variable expenses. Do you want to explain? And that's where you get in trouble during these times. So why do you get in trouble with those two terms? When things get a little bit slower?

28:59 Managing your fixed cost. Fixed vs. Variable expenses

Dave: Well, I mean, with variable cost, you can choose to not spend. If you don't have the demand, you don't you don't use it. These can be costs that go into making a product for a customer. And if there's no demand, you're not going to spend and go after those variable costs. Fixed costs though, so for instance, getting into a terrible building lease, with no way out on a 10, 20, 30 year opportunity. And then all sudden the bottom drops out. Well, yeah, sure. You could try to do some refinancing, you can try to do some creative things, but those fixed costs, build and build and build and when times are good. You tend to think well, this is this is always going to be a cost to my business. You kind of talk yourself into it. And and you say well, it's always gonna be there and foundationally I'm making enough profit so it doesn't matter. What does matter, because the fixed costs in when times go tough, are the ones that are going to drag you down. And it's going to limit your ability to get creative.

Ken: So what are fixed costs give us an example of several.

Dave: Fixed costs, like I mentioned, could be a mortgage on a building. A fixed costs could be an investment into plant equipment that you've purchased, and you're financing out. So it's those things that that are embedded in your business that are have a long term financial impact that you're going to have to pay off overtime. And they're not easy to shift. They're not easy to to not pay anymore. Similar to feedstock to make a product, you just don't buy the feedstock anymore, because you're not making product, well, then you're still going to have to pay your mortgage. So those fixed costs can be pretty, pretty onerous.

Ken: Vince do you have anything to add about that? Fixed costs.

31:04 Fixed Costs (Conservative Risks)

Vince: For the most part, you're you're going to be committed to your fixed costs, right? I think going off the conservative risk idea, I think there is an opportunity. I'll give you an example. When when the first week of COVID hit, I was reached out to by a vendor who's doing a promo. And the vendor we wanted to, we wanted to become a part of their program for years. But it was cost prohibitive and didn't make sense at the time. But when COVID hit, they were concerned, so they discounted their services heavily. And they gave us an opportunity. And in the moment, you know, we were so unsure of what was going to happen, it was definitely a risk to take. But it made sense to jump into that because the discount was there, it was a once in a lifetime opportunity. And we took that conservative risk. So I think, you know, there's definitely opportunity if you're prepared, and you have the finances to take those conservative risks, maybe because you've limited your fixed costs to begin with, but something we try to do is stay pretty lean, when it comes to fixed costs, you have an opportunity in those situations.

32:07 Building loyalty to your employees

Ken: So, let's talk a little bit about employees during this particular type of time. You know those are valuable folks who depend on a livelihood. And I think it's important for small business people to think about how you can be loyal to them during a period of time slow down. And that can mean a number of things. Of course, often you just think about laying off, but I think there are other ways in which you can approach that no one being, fewer hours. One being just a cut in pay instead of a full layoff. And the other is as an owner, taking less out yourself. And I think it depends on what your feelings are, and your your attitudes, I guess. But it's always it seemed to me that my employees were valuable, and they should be paid first. And so that's another way I think, to work through some of this and really build loyalty among your staff among your employees is to just let them know that you're there to take care of them, and to do everything you can to make sure that their their job and their income is somewhat protected.

Ken: So I think we've had a great discussion here. I don't know if anybody has any comments who are watching online, but please, if you do, feel free to ask some questions. Before we get closed up here. We we'd really like you to join us and and see if you can maybe challenge us a little bit to talk to you about what maybe your challenges or your thoughts are on this. Uh, Dave, you have anything to wrap us up here?

Dave: Just a comment for me as we were going through this Ken and Vince, I just kept coming back to this phrase in my head of you know, “the School of Hard Knocks is a great education.”

Ken: It's a master's degree.

Dave: Going tough times and you know, just facing challenges where you think oh my gosh, I gotta let go my best employee or I can't believe I can't deliver this for my customer because of supply chain and things out of my control and then it causes your number one to get real creative. Number two, it provides incredible focus to your business. And I would say that, for a small business owner, you probably aren't going to have a few employees in the School of Hard Knocks, get them engaged too, get them part of keeping the business going forward. And you know, somebody has the gift of the gab, go put them out there, see if they can sell something, and who knows? But there's all kinds of ways you can use your employees during this time, and they'll grow just like you will as a leader.

Ken: That occurs to me. That discussion, Dave, about transparency. And while I don't think anybody has to share specific numbers with people, I do think you can share percentages and trends, so that the people who work for you can understand that, what the challenges are during this time, and I think we'll build loyalty with that as well. And understanding and, and so just being transparent about those kinds of things. The other thing that that just comes to my mind that we didn't mentioned it earlier, but this is also a good time, if you have in retail inventory, that has not been selling, or that you need some cash, you need to have a sale. You know, inventory, this gathering dust, doesn't do anybody any good, including you. And that can be put to work elsewhere. And that's a very good way then to be able to bring into something bring in something new is to have some kind of a clearance, or whatever the sale, whatever you want to call it. But to create interest and excitement, and then also be able to make make way for some some new products. So there are a lot of different ways to do this. But I do think it's important from a leadership standpoint, to be transparent. And to be honest, and to share to share in the struggles that are the challenges that go along with your economy. That's not just booming. Vincent, do you have anything you'd like to say to close this out here?

Vince: Well, I want to I do want to say something, but then I want you to close this out talking about the next session. We've had some kind of watching the views. And we've had some really loyal viewers from the west centralized BDC Facebook page and from the Small Business squad Facebook page. So while Ken's closing out, drop your business name in the chat. And I'll display it I know that people can be shy. So I'm not asking you to ask questions. Just put your business name in the chat. If you want to be displayed. I'll put it on the ticker down below while Ken's closing us out. So, some free promo as a thank you to those of you who have been loyally watching. And hopefully someone takes the time to type their business in there and get some free promotion. So Ken, why don't you go ahead and talk about what we have coming down the pipeline.

Ken: I can do that. So first of all, I think it's important to point out the support system that Vince and I've had in these particular sessions that we've been doing over the last several months, Dave being one of those. And of course, you know, Dave is a great resource affiliate with ISBDC and the services that they offer, and, frankly, their extended network, you can get statistical information for my ISBDC that you can't find anywhere else. And I think that's just free. That's the other thing that's about that. Vince, who is the administrator of Small Business Squad, also works in search engine optimization, and of course, web design. I continued and over the years, I've mentored individuals like Vince, I think it's been about 10 years now for Vince and I, that we've been associated, but also believe strongly in the resources of a community, through the nonprofit sector and those kinds of things. Look out to people like us, but also to your peers and advisory groups. And then the other thing is to use your professional advisors, you if you have an accountant, remember you pay them and ask them questions, and have them help you with your budgeting and your forecasting. The same thing is true with your banker or your insurance agent, you know, you need to work with your debt, or you have business loans or you need a line of credit, you need to talk to your banker. In addition to that, you're going to have an insurance agent that maybe should review your insurance. And so there's a number of these types of steps that you can take during these kinds of times, and to use that network of people that will will help you so we're going to try to use some of those kinds of networks in our next few sessions. The next session next week, is Your Responsibility to the Business Owner During Uncertain Times. And we hope that our guests will be an individual who was significantly impacted by the pandemic and went through that and survived and is continuing to try to grow their business and I think that'll be very interesting for you all to hear. And then we're going to talk in several weeks about leadership and self management. And you know, one of the things that's just terribly important when we talk about keeping a positive atmosphere in our business, is that we take care of ourselves. So we take care of our health, that we take care of our mental health, and that we that we manage ourselves so that we can manage our staff in our business well, so that's just the two that are coming up. But there are others on finding new markets and other different things that were, I think, definitely will apply that I learned and tried to apply with the two or three times that we went through downturns and interest rates of 15% and some of those kinds of things. S, please feel free folks, if you're listening to contact any of us through the Small Business Squad, I urge you to join if you don't, and thanks for watching.

Vince: Yeah, thank you very much, everyone. Hopefully next time someone takes up the free promotional opportunity. But either way, anyone who's watching go to to learn more, and stay in touch. Again, Dave, thank you guys!

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